Legal Guidance: Child Living Arrangements, Co-Parenting, and More

Jane Libbis: Even with separated couples who think that they have kind of resolved their feelings, often the hackles absolutely go up for a variety of reasons. One might be, you know, how dare you replace me? But also it might be, I do not want somebody else mothering or fathering my children. And there’s that whole complexity of emotions.

Laura Jenkins: In The Blend is a podcast series that helps parents navigate life within a blended family. Join me as I speak with experts and guests to get practical advice on how to have a harmonious blended family life. This series dives deep into the unique dynamics, logistics and challenges of raising a blended family. From new partners to juggling mixed finances, we will help guide you through it. Welcome back to In The Blend. Now, I’m thrilled to be joined by Jane Libbus today, who is a partner, lawyer and founder of Umbrella Law based here in Australia. And she has a special interest in helping blended families as a stepmother herself with 10 years firsthand experience. During our chat, we delve into essential aspects such as child visitation rights, co-parenting arrangements, plus parenting plans and court orders. Jane is an absolute wealth of information on this subject and I so enjoyed our chat.

Before we begin, if you’re not already a subscriber on the podcast, make sure you do hit subscribe in your podcasting app just to ensure you don’t miss an episode. And if you’re feeling extra generous, leave us a rating and review so we can reach more blended family listeners.

All right, now let’s jump in to today’s extremely insightful conversation with Jane.

Well, welcome, Jane. It is so lovely to be chatting with you today. I am very much looking forward to our chat. I’m looking forward to it too, Laura. I’m very happy to be here. Thanks. Now, Jane, as well as being a lawyer and a counsellor, you’re also a stepmum yourself. Yes, I am. You live with your stepchildren full-time, that’s correct?

Jane Libbis: That’s right. Yes, my now teenage stepchildren have been with us full-time for about 10 years. Wow. I’m speaking from experience when I’m talking about family issues.

Laura Jenkins: Absolutely. Yeah, so there’s no question here that you understand all of the different twists and turns of that whole post-separation journey and blended family living. Yes. So Jane, given your experience, let’s talk child custody to begin with. I’m sure this comes up all the time in your day-to-day line of work. Can you provide an overview of some of the key factors that the courts consider when determining those child custody and visitation rights in cases involving blended families specifically?

Jane Libbis:
For sure. OK, so I guess I suppose the first thing to mention here, and it’s somewhat pedantic, but is that we don’t use the term custody actually in Australia anymore. Used to be custody, but now we just talk about where the child lives and where the child spend time. So live with and spend time. Although it is very easy to call it custody because that kind of makes sense as a term, whereas live with is a bit nebulous. just for your information and the information of people listening. And the thing that is most taken into account when we’re talking about time with children, the overriding factor is always going to be what is in the best interest of the child. And that means, realistically, who has capacity to do the day-to-day things that children need and where is the child’s primary bond. So, it’s interesting because I’m thinking, of course, here that we might be dealing with the mum’s side of the step family, Martin, or we might be dealing with the dad’s side of the step family when we’re talking about children. But so I’ll talk a bit specifically about the considerations and then I guess how that dovetails into the step family situation. So when we’re determining level of time with children, the first port of call, of course, is to see if the parents can agree. And that will be based on them, I guess, thinking about what the child needs, again, that the importance of those relationships with mum and with dad and the practicalities of who can do what, who’s the person that is there to take the child to school, pick the child up, be there, pick them up from after school care, whatever it might be, and who’s the person that the child goes to if they’ve got a sore knee or if they need comfort or if they can’t get to sleep, where are the bonds, how does all of that lie? And if the child has additional needs, then of course it’s useful often to speak to the support workers around that child to work out what’s going to be necessary for them, because in particular children who are on the spectrum and autistic children often will have considerations and needs that neurotypical children don’t have.

And what we find tends to happen when you sort of shake all of that up is that in many cases, it means that the children are a majority of time with the person who has been their primary carer during the relationship, which if you’re looking at a heteronormative couple might be mum versus dad. But whoever it is, of course, the same concept applies in same-sex relationships when one parent has been the primary carer. It tends to be that the children stay with that person for more of the time and then spend typically, somewhere between 3 and 5 nights is quite common with the other parent. Sometimes families are appropriate for equal time, but that’s much harder. And often that will be week on, week off, if the parents can be cooperative. Or sometimes people do a more common, sorry, a more messy configuration of sometimes they do 2, 2, 5, 5. or 5-2-2-5, which does my head in a little bit, where they might be five nights with one parent, two nights with the other parent, two nights back to the other parent, five nights to the other parent. I mean, I think that that would be really quite a nightmare and particularly in a blended family, the chances of things lining up then would be crazy.

Laura Jenkins: I’m imagining a big colour-coded schedule on the wall in that scenario.

Jane Libbis: So, I guess that’s in general terms how it works and if the parents can’t agree, then ultimately they would go to mediation or if need be, if they became part of the court process, there would be a family report where both the parents would be interviewed and any relevant step-parents and partners would be interviewed too as with the children and then that person who is usually a child psychologist would give their view on what’s going to be in the best interest of the child based on all of those factors.

So I guess when you’re dealing with a step family, it often is therefore worth considering, and this might be jumping ahead, but it’s sort of answering this question as well, is that if you’re partnering with somebody who already has an arrangement in terms of time with their own children, And of course, this is a very common situation now. In fact, I was joking with a former client about we really need a dating app where you can put in what your nights are so that you can make sure that you line up with something that’s going to be functional for you.

Laura Jenkins:
Wouldn’t that be great if you could do that? I love that idea, Jane. That’s amazing. Some entrepreneurial person will probably do it now. Yes, you need to go and IP that.

Jane Libbis: But so there’s this sense of considering I guess if the relationship is important, which you want it to be, are you going to want your children to be together or separate? And these are things that then need to be taken into account when you’re negotiating with your own former spouse. So as the new couple within what’s going to be the step family, is it going to work for your children to spend time with their step siblings? Or is that configuration of gender and age and stage such that it’s going to be a nightmare if they’re all together? Bearing in mind that then for the new couple, that’s going to mean that they maybe have no time alone without somebody’s child being there. But that still might be in the best interest of everybody’s kids, but not in the best interest of the new lovers.

Or do you want to have a pattern whereby, and I do have, I have had many clients who say, Well, I want to negotiate my alternate weekends but I need the weekends to start on that weekend because that’s going to line up with my new partner’s time with their kids and so you end up with time alone just for the adults. Yes. Yeah. So, the considerations for the party who is separating, so let’s be perhaps, let’s assume, let’s talk about here we might have Mum’s already got her arrangement intact and then she’s partnered with somebody who’s then negotiating his time. So the negotiations that he has with his ex will still have the same factors from a legal perspective that we discussed before, but he will need to then come back to the new partner and be thinking, okay, how is this time going to work for us? And also then that step relationship does become a factor that needs to be taken into account. in weighing up the best interest of his kids because it’s not going to be in their best interest if they’re going to be spending time with dad and being bullied by stepmum’s bratty 16-year-old or whatever it might be. So that does become a best interest sort of consideration. It’s such a tangled, we know this, but it is such a kind of tangled web and there are so many considerations. You probably know this as I do from friends where couples marry and they’ve got separated parents and Christmas becomes a nightmare because you’ve got not just two lots of families to visit but four and this is of course what happens for kids who have separated and have new family mum and dad together, where are you going, where are you spending your time?

So all of these things, you mentioned before the kind of coloured map, you do kind of need that.

Laura Jenkins: Yes, oh my gosh, it gets so complex, doesn’t it?

Jane Libbis: And I know I’ve made it sound complex and I wish I could make it sound easy, but it’s kind of not.

Laura Jenkins: No, it’s not, because we often say there’s no one size fits all. Everybody’s got a slightly different situation and a different scenario. So when it comes to the law and where that child needs to be based, what you’re saying is we need to take into account all these different factors that pertain to their situation at either home.

Jane Libbis: Yes, that’s right. And what we’re ultimately doing is when we’re considering if we’re siblings and somebody’s saying, where do Jane and Laura need to be? It’s about what’s important for Jane and Laura as the children. What are their best interests? that’s going to be based on what their own parents can offer.

And if what part of those, one of those parents is offering is a, is a stable and fabulous step, step family life, well, that’s good. But if on the other side, there’s, you know, mum’s re-partnered with kind of a drug dealer who’s going to be a risk to the children, then obviously that’s going to be taken into account in looking at the children’s best interests as well. And sometimes when my clients are looking at re-partnering, they will say, is this going to be a problem?

And typically I would say, well, A, think about when you might introduce the new partner to the kids, but B, as long as they’re an okay person, ultimately it’s going to be fine.

Laura Jenkins: Yes. So, in that scenario, if you’re meeting someone new, is that often a time when these agreements get revised? So, if a new partner comes onto the scene, are people knocking on your door then, Jane, and saying, okay, we need to redo this plan because there’s now person X in the picture?

Jane Libbis: Sometimes they are just because there might be a desire to align things with arrangements for the new partner. or sometimes it might be because they’re, again, Often it’s a trigger when there’s a new partner, people get their hackles up a little bit. So sometimes somebody that was willing to negotiate some arrangement, if it was just for their former spouse, becomes more difficult to negotiate with if there’s a new person on the scene, just because of what the new person represents. Nothing to do with how they will be with the children. And so it’s really important to think about the timing, not only for the sake of the children, but also for the impact on the ex. of mentioning the new person. Because even though they might not legally make anything different, tactically, negotiation-wise, they very often do. Because even couples, even separated couples who think that they have kind of resolved their feelings, Often the hackles absolutely go up for a variety of reasons. One might be, you know, how dare you replace me? But also it might be, I do not want, you know, somebody else mothering or fathering my children. And there’s that whole complexity of emotions.

Laura Jenkins: Oh, definitely. I want to talk a little bit about parenting plans and in your experience, how you’ve seen parenting plans be beneficial when it comes to children living in two different homes.

Jane Libbis: So a parenting plan is an agreement between the two parents that is not submitted to the court to become orders of the court. So it’s not legally binding, but it’s a good kind of moral anchor for people. And for parents who are not high conflict, often a parenting plan is all that you need. But if you perhaps are a little bit suspicious of the other person or you just like the idea of having something that’s binding, you can then, if you’re on good terms, you can submit that to the court in such a way that it becomes orders of the court so that it’s legally binding. And of course, at the more extreme end, you can fight it out in court and not have made a decision yourself at all, but still you end up with court orders.

So the advantage of, and let’s start with parenting plan, because hopefully all of your listeners are low enough conflict and sensible enough that they can negotiate a plan and don’t need to fall back on orders. The advantage of it is that as a starting point, then it gives everybody direction for what needs to happen when. And I think particularly if you’re dealing with, because again, you might be dealing with four parents. You probably are in a step family if both parts of the couple have got kids. There’s so many people that are involved in this. And sometimes, of course, the new partner of the other person has their own ex, like it just becomes a spiral. And so it means that then everybody knows where, as long as everybody follows the plan, everybody knows where they stand, which means that all of those families can then make arrangements in their own families of origin, can then kind of get on with their own lives, knowing when they’re going to be child free and not, and make really sensible decisions. It just takes away the need to kind of go, Oh God, where are they this week? Oh, you’re wanting the kids on Saturday. No, I’m not quite free on Saturday. What about Sunday? No, no, no. Because we’re doing, you know, it just, just means that everybody’s really clear and, and because family life is frenetic enough, it just takes away one set of conversations. Yeah. And the decision making.

And so a parenting plan and more so than orders, a parenting plan can also talk about things that are, not just about the practicalities of day-to-day life, but also talk about more aspirational things in terms of the way the parenting will work and how your child’s life might be. It might be that it talks about, for example, we will not introduce new partners for X amount of time, or in terms of babysitting, and this can be in orders as well, but we will each give the other the first option to care for the children who are not available. You know, because that’s often a big one, isn’t it? It is. I’m here and my ex has sent them off to their mother and whatever, and you know, that can become a problem. So the act of creating the plan really means that you turn your mind to a whole lot of issues that are going to crop up in daily life. It might be a number of extracurricular activities. It might be type of extracurricular activities. It might be religion, you know, we want to make sure that our child goes to church a minimum of twice a month or whatever, you know, whatever, whatever it is. So the plan can be a little bit more detailed. Some of those things can be dealt with kind of at a higher level in a document that becomes orders. But there’s really the scope for nuances, you know, and often a parenting plan also has some kind of fluffier but important statements about, you know, Jack and Joe want their children to feel loved and nurtured and they will, you know, it might be that, you know, they each agree that they will always read their child a bedtime story or, you know, depending on the age of the child or the more general kind of parenting philosophies. Yes. And I think that, I think that aspirationally, you know, obviously people separate because there’s something about them as a couple that doesn’t work, but most people then still want their children to be raised with love and positivity and in a way that the parental conflict either doesn’t exist or isn’t going to impact on them. So a parenting plan is a really good opportunity for parents to really think, how is what we’re doing going to impact on our children? and how can we make their life better and let’s think about it all in advance as much as possible and write it down and then we can just go about our lives.

Laura Jenkins: And let it play out and just follow the plan. So the difference between the parenting plan and the court orders is that the court orders more of a legally binding agreement, so is there less change when it comes to the court orders?

Jane Libbis: Yeah, that’s a great question. And everything in family law, Laura, comes with kind of a thousand caveats and ifs, buts and maybes. So with orders, in theory, they’re binding and they’re final, but because children change and life changes, you can seek to change the orders If you’re not agreeing, you can seek to change the orders if there’s a significant change in circumstances, like maybe a new partner, but more a desire to move into state or the child becomes unwell in some way or those sorts of things, you can seek new orders.

But the other thing I think that’s important for people to know is that if the parents agree on changes to their orders, they can do anything. So if, for example, the orders say that Wednesday is dad’s night and dad says to mum, Actually, I can’t have them tonight. And then mom says, that’s fine. Have them on Thursday. Nobody cares. And even if they decided that all of the time, they should be with dad on Thursday instead of Wednesday, the court, nobody’s going to say, hang on a minute. That’s not in your orders. If you agree, you can vary them as much as you like. Um, but it just means that if you don’t agree, if you don’t agree, then you can turn around and say, nah, sorry. It’s in the orders that you have them on Wednesday. If you’re not free tonight, too bad. You’re not getting makeup time because you can fall back more precisely and say, Legally, I don’t have to make the children available to you tonight and I’m not. Got it. That’s not a great way to live but you can do this. Yeah, okay. And I think the other thing though that is, you know, this is one of the ifs, buts and maybes, is that whereas orders are binding, they still don’t always get you what you want in as much as I have a number of male clients at the moment who for varying reasons have exes who’ve decided that the children should stop seeing dad for a while because dad’s kind of done something to annoy mom and mom’s using the kids as a weapon, right? And so even then when there are orders, the difficulty is that it becomes quite difficult sometimes to actually enforce them.

So I just kind of want to sow the seed of if you’ve got a really high conflict, difficult situation, don’t necessarily think unfortunately that you can breathe a sigh of relief once you have got orders because there’s still a lot of scope for them to kind of be misused and the system is quite slow. and redressing and getting you the kind of justice in inverted commas that you might want.

Laura Jenkins:
Got it. Okay. So, the word ‘orders’ sounds like it’s final and done.

Jane Libbis:
Yes. Yes. But just know that if you’re at one of the extreme ends where you’ve got a difficult situation, it might not be as done as you want it to be.

Laura Jenkins: No. So just thinking about communication between an ex-partner and an individual, in the case of court orders or even parenting plans, is there a best practice for communication between the couple? And by that I mean, should they be using an app so that it can be then read by someone else and monitored?

Jane Libbis:
Yes. I guess There’s a lot of memes going around, aren’t they, about dance like nobody’s watching but text and email like what will be read in court, right? And that is a good kind of place to start is when you’re communicating by whatever means, just consider how this would look if it was to be shown to a third party and in particular if it was to one day be shown to a court, so therefore be civil. There’s also the sort of overriding principle of treat it as a business communication, so take the heat out of it and really stick to facts. In terms of the way that you might communicate, yes, absolutely, as you would know, Laura, a lot of people these days are using apps. And that tends to be helpful for people where there is more conflict because some of the apps will screen for the way that something’s being written and will change the thing. We do a bit of an AI job and change the wording if it’s inappropriate. And it also can mean that some of the apps therefore have calendars and other tools that mean that everything relating to the child and the family can be together in one place, including all of that communication. So some people like that, but they tend to be, again, the higher conflict sort of cases. Otherwise, it does still tend to be text and email. And often people do prefer that so that there is that written confirmation of what’s been said. But it’s very much about just keeping the emotion out.

Laura Jenkins:
Yes, definitely. I had a lovely lawyer on the podcast going back about a year or so now, and she said, you can think it all you like, but don’t say it. And I thought, yeah, it’s brilliant.

Jane Libbis: And perhaps if you’re sending something and you’re not sure about it, and that’s the other factor, I suppose, that whole concept of don’t hit send straight away. You might want to send it to yourself even and consider it initially. Or you might want your new partner, and often this happens, I think, in new relationships, is that the new partner will read something that’s going to be sent to the ex-partner so that there’s that bit of reality testing. And sometimes, of course, that ends up morphing, particularly in case of dads and kids, it often ends up to being the new woman talks to the ex-woman about arrangements for the children because they’re able to communicate in a non-conflictual way sometimes. better than the actual separated partners can communicate.

Laura Jenkins: Yes, yes. I’ve got a girlfriend actually where that’s the case in her scenario where she’s in a primary contact with the ex, her partner’s ex.

Jane Libbis: Yes, but sometimes otherwise I think, and I know in the case of lots of my clients, it is the new partners that draft the email for their new partner to send to the ex. Yes. Because if somebody’s able to just take the emotion out of it that little bit more, I mean, it’s really about sending the kind of message that you would be happy to receive yourself, really, isn’t it, Laura? I mean, it’s about let’s just be civil adults.

And also, I think another thing to consider is What if for some reason your child saw the message and you shouldn’t be showing them messages from their other parent, of course, but if that came about for some reason, they’re picking up mum’s phone to play a game or whatever it might be, how would you want the child to, you know, would you want them to see something that you’ve read and you know, what would the impact be on them? So I think that’s a really important thing to consider as well.

Laura Jenkins: Absolutely. We had that very same discussion where we, as the kids were, my stepchildren were getting old enough to be able to read, that that was something that you did need to be mindful of, that if they do pick up your phone, you don’t want them to see an awful message flash up.

Jane Libbis: No, you absolutely don’t. No, no. And actually on that subject, different but kind of related. As children get older, of course, you do need to also think about what messages you might be sending to your new partner too. and make sure that they’re also of a kind that you wouldn’t mind coming up on your phone. I did have a client whose child found some quite inappropriate photos that their dad had sent to somebody new. It was all very nice between dad and the new partner, but not so nice for the 13-year-old to find on dad’s phone. Just as an aside, it is also worth being mindful of that kind of thing.

Laura Jenkins:
Definitely. Nothing is sacred when there’s children around.

Jane Libbis: That’s right. So it is worth thinking about communication with the ex, but also perhaps communication with the other partner in terms of what’s there digitally that kids might find.

Laura Jenkins: Absolutely. That’s such a good point.

Jane Libbis: And I’m sure all of those things get surfaced in court as well as evidence for behaviour or… All of those things get taken into account in negotiating because, again, you can imagine how my client reacted to having her child find this. She didn’t really want to negotiate very much with him anymore because it just got her hackles up for a whole lot of reasons.

Laura Jenkins: Now, let’s just talk a little bit about if parents can’t come to an agreement on something like education, so private school I imagine is a big one or even private healthcare. Someone wants it, someone else doesn’t want to pay for it. Is that the sort of thing that a parenting plan or a coordinator would help resolve or would that be more of a court matter?

Jane Libbis: Yes, good question. So actually, one thing that I would say there on the subject of schooling is that a big bugbear of mine is when parents have not decided on where their child is going to start prep or start year 12, and leave it too late in the year before school, and suddenly this poor child gets to January and doesn’t know where they’re starting school. So, as a quick public service announcement to your listeners, if you’re going to have issues about schooling, start them a couple of years in advance because otherwise, it’s just the saddest thing, particularly when it is starting at a new school and all their mates know where they’re going and they don’t know. So, assuming we’re starting far enough in advance, if you can’t agree on what will happen, then really that’s a situation where you might go to mediation or perhaps meet with an educational psychologist, depending on the needs of your child, to talk about what is going to be the best school. And if you still can’t agree, then you can make an application to the court.

And that’s not a quick process these days either, because you have to have gone to mediation, you have to have set out in advance the orders that you would be seeking, and then eventually you’re in a position to go to court. And The court doesn’t really like deciding on things like schooling in particular because they kind of think, my God, can’t these parents even make a decision about something so basic for their children? But what tends to happen then is that if money is not an issue, it tends to be that the person who is the primary carer is the person who can determine what school the children go to. So in a case in particular where you might be negotiating about two public schools, it might be the one that’s near dad or the one that’s near mum or whatever it might be. It tends to be that the primary care is the one that the court is going to say, well, this is the person who’s going to be taking the children to school most often. I’m going to rule in favour of mum unless there’s some catastrophic reason that the school she’s choosing is wrong. But if it’s a private school issue, as you pointed out, Laura, which it also often is, That’s going to be based on, and that will need to become a court issue, potentially, if they can’t reach agreement. In that situation, the court is going to consider, obviously, who has the capacity to pay for the private school. And one of the things taken into account is, did the parties sign the, did they both sign the application form for the private school? And that can, and which often parents do, and that can become a problem, but that sort of, well, okay, this was clearly contemplated as the way that you wanted to raise your child.

And then often, The court can order people to pay private schools fees in situations where they mightn’t really think that themselves that they could afford it. But if they’ve been setting themselves up to do it if they’ve signed the form, then it may be that there is an order for the private schooling and there is an order for the non-resident parent who was often the higher income earner to be paying those school fees or a proportion of them. And that then also though becomes a child support application. So, this is again one of these family law complexities. where if there’s already an assessment, you need to be applying to vary the assessment and otherwise the court deals with that as a child support order in terms of the payment for the fees.

Laura Jenkins: Right. Okay. So, it’s not just about choice of school, it’s about payment for the school.

Jane Libbis: Yes.

Laura Jenkins: Yeah, that makes sense. what advice or tips would you offer to blended families who are navigating these issues or co-parenting challenges, anything to do with this overall legal landscape in a blended family? Any final words or pieces of advice that you’d like to share?

Jane Libbis: Yes, great question Laura. I think our first consideration is that the reason you find yourself in your blended family is because you love your partner. You love the parent of the blended family. If it weren’t for that person, then you wouldn’t be living with their kids. So you need to focus first and foremost on the relationship. I think that’s a really important starting point is to not let all the negotiations that you might be having with exes and things and time with children and difficulties get you down. But to make sure that whatever your arrangements are, you still make time for yourselves as a couple. I think that’s the number one piece of advice I would give because otherwise the wheels will fall off and it will all be in vain. Right. So that’s point one.

I think the next thing then is to consider what’s worth fighting for. And so if you’re arguing over one night or if you’re arguing over whether you should do cricket in, you know, one suburb or another or things that are, you know, reasonably small in the scheme of your child’s life, just don’t have the battle because it’s better to just get on with life and also for the child to have certainty in their life sooner. So pick your battles is kind of the next step.

And also, I guess then to think about arrangements that are going to be workable for the whole extended family. And maybe to do that, you know, some people do do that coloured calendar that we were joking about before, Laura, in terms of really getting a sense of, and in fact, when you’re negotiating something, it is worth often getting the calendar out and really mapping what is this going to look like. Make sure that you’re not forgetting something because sometimes it might be that there’s a really crucial night that you’ve forgotten, something that falls apart when you really go through and play it out in terms of how will this be to live. So really think about it and set out and do use the calendar in terms of understanding what arrangements will look like and don’t sign up for something that you don’t understand.

Laura Jenkins: I love it. Very good tips to finish up with Jane. So focus on your partner, pick your battles and get organised in summary.

Jane Libbis: Yes, exactly. Totally. Yes, perfect summary Laura.

Laura Jenkins: Well Jane, it’s just been such a pleasure chatting with you today. Where can people go if they’d like to connect with you or come and knock on your door for some more advice?

Jane Libbis: Yes, fantastic. So they can go to www.umbrellafamilylaw.com.au to find our website and they’ll find me there and they’re welcome to or they can email me, jane.umbrellafamilylaw.com.au. Very happy to chat with any of your fabulous listeners.

We’re based in South Melbourne but Thanks to COVID, you know, Zoom is so prevalent now that we absolutely deal with clients from all over the country. So happy to help anybody and very passionate, particularly about step family life.

Laura Jenkins: Thank you so much, Jane. It’s just been an absolute pleasure.

Jane Libbis: Thank you, Laura. It’s been a delight.

Laura Jenkins: Thanks for listening to the In The Blend podcast. The show notes for this episode are available at intheblend.com.au. And if you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe and please rate and review in your podcasting app. You can also follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.