In this episode, we hear from co-parenting coach, Tiffany Rochester and talk all things co-parenting.
With Tiffany’s two decades of expertise and experience, we uncover practical advice that can help navigate the complexities of shared parenting – whether it be communication, setting boundaries or effectively making joint decisions.
Get ready to gain a fresh perspective and discover effective approaches to minimise conflicts and foster healthy co-parenting dynamics.
Tiffany Rochester (00:01): If you are struggling with a behaviour with your child, share that with your co-parent because they might also be struggling. And then you can join forces.
Laura Jenkins (00:11): In The Blend is a podcast series that helps parents navigate life with a blended family. Join me as I speak with experts and guests to get practical advice on how to have a harmonious, blended family life. This series dives deep into the unique dynamics, logistics, and challenges of raising a blended family. From new partners to juggling mixed finances, we will help guide you through it.
Welcome back to In The Blend. In today’s episode, we have a special guest joining us, co-parenting coach Tiffany Rochester. During our chat, we talk all things co-parenting, including strategies for minimising conflicts in co co-parenting relationships with Tiffany’s expertise and experience. We uncover valuable insights and practical advice that can help navigate the complexities of shared parenting, whether it be communication, setting boundaries, or effectively making joint decisions. Get ready to gain a fresh perspective and discover effective approaches to foster healthy co-parenting dynamics. Let’s jump right into this empowering conversation with Tiffany. Well, welcome Tiffany, and great to have you here today.
Tiffany Rochester (01:25): Thank you so much, Laura. I’m really pleased to be here.
Laura Jenkins (01:26): Now, Tiffany, you have got nearly two decades of experience in supporting separated parents in collaborative co-parenting, and through your experience, you advocate that separation does not have to be a barrier to creating and sustaining a healthy co-parenting relationship, which I just love. So lots of questions for you today, but let’s start with some of the typical sources of conflict. So, in your experience as a co-parenting coach, what are some of the most common sources of conflict that you’re seeing among co-parents?
Tiffany Rochester (02:00): I guess there are a couple of areas that I see the most conflict come about. One is, is very present in the early days of separation, but, but can persist for quite some time, which is around parents finding a shared care arrangement that works really well. It can be incredibly difficult for the primary carer to, or for either parent to adjust to the idea that they don’t get to have the child with them every night with their head on, on a pillow at their home. And so within that, there’s, there’s a lot of a grief and a minefield of confusion around how to make that work. I often find that parents are, are very motivated to work in the best interests of the children, but there can be a lot of conflict about what that is going to be, particularly when it comes to shared care, but also when it comes to extracurricular activities, which school to go to.
(02:51): So often parents are working really hard for the children they love so much, they just have different ideas about how to get there along with it. Then the other area where we see a lot of conflict is in different parenting styles and often think like, you know, when we get in the shower, the best thing to do is have the hot tap and the cold tap both on to get a really, really lovely lukewarm mix. And in intact families, there’s, there’s more space for different parenting approaches and, and styles because each can balance each other beautifully across the day. That’s a harder thing for parents to wrap their heads around when they know that one of them has a strength in a particular area and the other parent has a strength in another. And that reflects in different parenting styles and sometimes different discipline approaches as well.
Laura Jenkins (03:40): I can imagine. And I think the, the big one would be that init after that initial split, getting used to not having the children with you all the time, as you say. So what are some of the strategies that you’d recommend? Let’s use that example to help co-parents reduce the conflict. So if they can’t agree on how many nights you’ll have and how many nights I’ll have, what are some things that they can do to help come to an agreement and create a more peaceful co-parenting relationship?
Tiffany Rochester (04:15): Look, I think one of the first things to do is to really take good care of yourself. That your emotions that are showing up in that space are entirely valid. Figuring out how to separate well is full of, of grief and anger. There can be a, a whole whole range of really painful emotions and those emotions need to be felt. They need compassion and care, they need nurturing so that they can soothe. And by taking care of ourselves, then we can connect in with who do I want to be in this moment? Who do I want my children to see me being in this moment? What do I want the legacy that I leave to be about? So that with our emotions being cared for, we can then step into how do I want my parenting to look as I step through this? And then that opens up a whole raft of more flexible behaviours because we’re no longer focused on the other, we’re focused on our children and taking really good care care of them.
(05:26): And then the other part within that is that, you know, hopefully most separated parents aren’t experts in divorce. Some, some might give it a go three times, but but most don’t get through to four. And so I would really wanna encourage parents to be incredibly gracious with themselves for the decisions that they might get wrong in the early days. It’s learning how to co-parent separately across two homes is a whole new dance. So there’s gonna be a lot of stepping on each other’s toes. So having grace and forgiveness for both you and your co-parent as you try and step it through. And then I’m a science geek, so I think it’s really, really important to go and have a look at the data about what is healthy for children. The 2023 international Conference on Shared Parenting recently released their conclusions. And one of those I think is like so useful is that they determined that it’s in the children’s best interest to have at least 30% of their time with each parent.
(06:35): And that’s even in high conflict dynamics. And I think that’s such a, such a beautiful way to take the pressure off to know that that’s going to be okay for the children. And and many parents can, can find a, a, a 50/50 arrangement or, or others splits that work for their children. That contact that the children have with both parents is so crucial. So to, to look at what the information is. And I’m a big fan of recruiting neutral people into help you with that. Family and friends love you to pieces. I know my, my mum, there’s very little that she wouldn’t do for me and she will be my fierce defender, but she might not be the best person to help me stay objective about somebody that I’m in conflict with or somebody that I’ve been really badly hurt by. So having some neutral advice in that space can be so helpful for getting clear at our thinking.
Laura Jenkins (07:35): I like the idea of looking to the research and looking and using that as a way to feel okay with decisions that may have been made that you don’t particularly like or, or actions that are are happening that you’re not in strong agreement with. So, I like that as a way to feel okay, that it’s, it’s not just you, but this is, this is quite a common thing and this is what the research tells us.
So when it comes to communication, I’m conscious that communication plays a really crucial role in co-parenting, in particular when it comes to working out things like how many nights we’ll have at one house versus the other, as we were just talking about. What are some effective communication strategies that can help co-parents navigate disagreements and minimise conflict?
Tiffany Rochester (08:29): Yes. Look I, I think the first thing that I would love for co-parents to have front of mind is that your kids are going to be fine. Like 80% of kids from separated families are absolutely indistinguishable from their peers in intact families. When you look at their mental health outcomes, their educational outcomes, their social outcomes. So the first part in navigating all of your communication is to know that your kids are probably going to be just fine. And the way to make sure that they’re in that 80% bucket is to shield them from conflict. That is the biggest predictor of poor outcomes for children growing up across two homes. So finding ways to shield them really matters in terms of things that I would suggest that people do, one, one is that space we’ve already talked about in terms of spending that time to really care for themselves and connect with who they want to be, to also be explicit with their co-parent about what they’re trying to do.
(09:30): So I think often talking through what our process is -“I’m really trying to be kind and I’m feeling stressed right now and I’m finding it hard to talk to you. I’m sorry if my tone is not coming across well because I have so much that I’m managing, but I’m trying to show up here in a, in a collaborative way, taking time to really listen to the perspective of your co-parent to really understand what their values are in what they’re trying to ask you to do.” So often the, the values of co-parents is the same. It’s just the, the topography of how they’re going to get there that is different. And so often by really stopping and really listening to understand where your co-parent is coming from before jumping in, you’ll find that there are more options for leeway. More, more options for negotiation and, and give and take where the give and take isn’t about you compromising on your values and how you want to show up for your kids.
(10:37): But I’m also a massive fan of cheats and hacks. And I’m not to say one, one that we can talk about now that we couldn’t talk about six months ago is Chat GPT. And I think that that is an amazing gift to co-parents when they’re really trying to think about how do I take the sting out of this correspondence that I’ve just received? Can I ask Chat GPT to rewrite it for me? So it doesn’t hurt so much when I read it. Or looking at these are, these are the points that I’m trying to make to my co-parent and can Chat GPT help me to write them in a way that is kind and firm, doesn’t compromise on my boundaries but is more likely to get my co-parent to be able to hear what it’s that I’m communicating. So I would say use any cheat that you can along the way. Co-parenting apps are another one of my favourite cheats because it just keeps all of that communication in one place. So I think looking for anything that makes it easier for you.
Laura Jenkins (11:52): Before you go on, on have you got any particular apps that, that you would recommend Tiffany?
Tiffany Rochester (11:58): Look, honestly, no. There are ones that are available, but they’re not brilliant. And so what I would say is watch this space because later this year we will be launching an app. And the reason that we are launching that app is that we found that the co-parenting apps that are available are better than nothing and not fluid enough and not intuitive enough to do the job of reducing the stress that they are designed to do. So in the meantime, I do have a lot of workarounds that I suggest to people. I do have a link on my website to a, a free course in that because I think it’s so useful around how to manage your email, how to manage notifications on your SMS, to have that wraparound effect until there is a suitable app on the market.
Laura Jenkins (12:49): Got it. And coming back to the Chat GPT point, I think that’s super interesting, and I have thought before about using chat g p t to craft messages for anyone either in a work context or personal context, but I really like that idea of using Chat GPT to decipher a message that you’ve received that might be really heated and just help me get to the core of what, what this message is about and, and strip away everything else. And I think that’s great. I love that.
Tiffany Rochester (13:24): Oh, look, absolutely. I think it can just the emotional load that it can take to first unpack what is there and then figure out how you’re going to reply. You get really playful with Chat GPT. I’ve asked Chat GPT to change correspondence into a limerick – and all of those modifications, they just allow us to interact with those words in a different way. But if you’re not a tech person or you know, you, you, you’re not with your, your phone or the computer at the time we can do a similar thing. One of my favorites is, is that game that they play on speaks and specs where the substitution game where you have to sing a text to, to a well-known song. So take that, that email that is triggering you like anything, find a song that you know the tune really, really well and belt it out and see what that does to your relationship that you have with those words.
Laura Jenkins (14:21): Oh, that’s awesome. I love that <laugh>. Oh, so good. Let’s talk about boundaries, because I can imagine one of the biggest areas of conflict that arises in your office with couples you’re speaking to is, is boundaries and a either a lack of boundaries or different boundaries in different households. How can co-parents go about establishing clear boundaries to help reduce conflict and ideally promote healthier dynamics?
Tiffany Rochester (14:50): Yeah, so I guess there are, there are several aspects of boundaries. So there’s the boundaries that the co-parents have with each other, and then the boundaries that each parent has with the children when it comes to the boundaries that each parent has with the children, which, which certainly can be a source of contention conflict, what I would say is take the pressure off yourself. Do not care what your co-parent is doing around their boundaries with the children. If they have different screen time boundaries, if they have different bedtime boundaries, if they have a high appetite for excitement and risk if they are more strict than you would like them to be, don’t worry about it. Again, research geek, the research shows that if one parent provides an authoritative nurturing space for the children, that that is enough to protect their outcomes. So if you are worried about the boundaries in the other home, just pay attention to yours and that will be enough when it comes to boundaries with your co-parent.
(15:54): Then in a similar way, if you have agreed that it is suitable for there to be a shared care arrangement, then when there that your co-parent is parenting on their time, they’re perfectly skilled to do that. They may not do it the same way as you. They may not make the same choices as you. It’s really important that they get to parent unencumbered on their time. So if your child and children, children, obviously they, they, they want to get the best out of the world and they want the outcomes that they’re looking for. And their job is to find, how do I get the best out of my parents? And so if they know that recruiting their parent in the other house in to say, this parent’s not being okay to me, I don’t agree with this boundary. I want permiss to do X, Y, Z, they’re going to use that.
(16:41): Then using that doesn’t mean you have to do anything about it. You, you get to be the parent that says, take that back to the home where you’re, that’s, that’s their job to manage that. I, I can help you talk about your feelings. I can validate your experience that parent parents, you on their time and stepping out and not gate keeping the parenting that allows the best parts of the, the parenting and that new dynamic to emerge. I think one thing that can often be hard and hurtful for parents after separation is seeing their co-parents step up and take on roles and responsibilities really well that they didn’t do when they were a dynamic together. And I guess what I would say is, is reflect on that about how much your co-parent trusted you to do that, how much they felt comfortable with you doing that, and that’s why they didn’t need to step up and then give them the space in this new separated dynamic to really step up and take that on for themselves.
(17:46): Within that, then again, within boundaries, I would say don’t take the assumptions from your relationship when you’re together into your life across two homes. Because often what we’ll see is parents suddenly become more interested in who is buying the teacher’s gifts at the end of the year, who is going to do the catering for the children’s parties, who’s running the invites? And often both parents have a real interest to be involved, whereas beforehand it might have just been one parent carrying the load quite unsettling if you were the parent who’s used to doing that and really good at doing that. And again, I would say there is so much to be gained for your children and allowing their other parent to also be involved in those spaces and those decisions. So open those up for explicit conversations about how that kinda role division is gonna look going forward, knowing that it could be quite different from what you had in the past.
Laura Jenkins (18:44): Really interesting. I think the, the idea of having different boundaries in different houses, but being okay with that is, is freeing in some way. And it, it feels, everything feels lighter when you say that. It’s about focusing on what is what you can control and, and not worrying about what you can’t, but being there to support the children as and when they need that support.
The joint decisions piece is something that will come up all the time throughout the parenting journey. So long after the parents have separated, as their children are growing up, they’re still going to need to be making decisions about what high school they’re going to go to, how much they’re going to contribute to a car, or et cetera, et cetera. The list goes on. How can they, how can co-parents go about effectively making decisions together without escalating conflict every time they need to do so?
Tiffany Rochester (19:48): Yeah, look, I, I think you’re absolutely right about how many of those tricky decisions there are to step through. And often we’re not, we’re just not aware of our implicit assumptions that we hold. I am I’m a public school girl. I went to public school. My children go to a public school. If I had a co-parent who had wanted our kids to go to a private school, there would’ve been a lot of, a lot of the mental shift for me to make, to even open up to flexibly look at that as an option in my professional sphere. I can tell you that in most cases when it comes to school, you could toss a coin <laugh> and, and doesn’t matter, public or private often matters who the high school administrator is and, and what kind approach they have and, and how that, how that works for the children that you have.
(20:35): So in, in that specific example, I’ll often talk to parents about going and doing school tours and, and looking at the children that they have and the, and the culture of the schools that they’re looking at going. But that also won’t always be enough to help them find that shared decision. So some of the stuff that I would say is a huge amount of this is small stuff, and you never want to, you never want to stress out and damage a coparenting relationship or the relationship with your kids over small stuff. So again, so often schools really is small stuff. In Australia, you’ll get a really good education. In most schools, extracurricular activity is often small stuff. Kids having a, the opportunity to go to extracurricular and, and, and to follow their interest is, is is not small stuff. Like that’s a really important thing to do, but, but often the, whether they do X, Y, or Z is is not the important factor.
(21:36): So again, I would look at connecting with your values, listen carefully to what it is that your co-parent is looking for, look for that common ground. And the more that your co-parent feels that you’re hearing them, listening to them and making time to respect their viewpoint, the easier it is for them to keep their defences down to be able to do the same for you. So within that, I would say if, if historically, you know, and, and even if you really believe it to be true that your co-parent is “you are lazy, you are, you don’t care, you’re not across the needs of the children, as in-tune as I am” – you’ve all the types of narratives that could go on, even if you believe those to be absolutely true about your co-parent, I want you to reflect on if you tell them those things. And when you have told them those things in the past, has that ever resulted in them being able to keep their defences down and open up to conversations with you? And I’m going to bet that the answer is no, because they’re probably just as human as everybody else, in which case, anything that doesn’t help you have an easier time negotiating a difficult thing with your co-parent, just let those behaviours go. Tell them, tell them to your friends over coffee you know, vent – vent to your parents <laugh>.
Laura Jenkins (23:10): Yeah. And it, it takes a level of, it takes a level of self-awareness and maturity to do that in, in the moment when there’s things that have gone down in the past and there’s a lot of resentment and, and inherit anger or upset towards that person. But to think about that in the moment I think, I think is really powerful. It’s, it’s a matter of people reminding themselves to do that in the moment. And and as you say, think about what the alternative approach, what sort of impact that’s going to have.
Tiffany Rochester (23:49): Look, you are absolutely right. It is, it is so, so hard. Like these are very easy words for, for us to say to each other when we’re having this conversation. You know, I’m in a, a nice warm room and I feel really comfortable with you. So these are very, very easy words, but you’re right, the, the work in them is hard. And, and again, the international conference that I referenced earlier, again, one of their recommendations was that we need to do more in our social institutions and in social support in general to really wrap around separated families. And, and I feel so fierce and passionate about this, that separated co-parents have often been treated as the, either as the, as the unlovely or the, or the not in need of care or the, you know, you made your mess, you clean it up. I don’t know, it’s so stock standard because the divorce rates are so high, so who cares?
I’m not sure. But the reality is co-parents are desperately under-resourced. And when we look at representation in the media, the representations for how to do co-parenting well, how to do shared care, well, it’s just, it’s not present. We see lots of estrangement model, we see lots of denigrating parents modelled in our movies, in our sitcoms. And often our, our friends and our loved ones, they mean so well. They mean absolutely so well. And yet often the advice that they give is a very advice that is gonna land a co-parent in the hot water and, and make things worse. So I would, I would say to any person stepping through this journey, you’re not meant to do it alone. Like, do not ask yourself to do this alone. Find your village. And when you’re looking for your village, find the people who love you enough to tell you when you’re wrong. And the people who love you enough to risk saying, actually, I think there might be another way of looking at this dynamic with your co-parent, the person who will say, I think maybe you’re gonna make a mistake here. Bounce with those people, the ones that are going to help you make some really good solid decisions. And the ones, the ones that will ramp you up with your venting you know, hang out with them for sure. They, they’re really, really good fun – but karaoke with them and save your co-parent topics for those friends.
Laura Jenkins (26:15): Oh, good advice. Coming back to the different parenting styles theme, would it be the same as boundaries in that you can’t necessarily control the style that your co-parent has in their household and rather you should focus on honing your own parenting style when the children are with you? Would that be a correct assumption?
Tiffany Rochester (26:38): Yes, predominantly. And, and I think that the, the more that you do that, yes, you take the pressure yourself for sure. And I think that there are nuances that the easier you’re for your co-parent to approach, then the, the more likely they’re to come to your for ideas. And if you’re having that authoritative space, if you’re providing that nurturing attune response for your children, then if you are safe enough for your co-parent to come to and ask for your opinion, then when they’re struggling, they can come and say to you, I don’t know what I’m doing here, or You seem to manage this better than me. And if you do know that your co-parent does manage something better than you, like what a beautiful gift to be able to say, I see this in you. I recognise this strength in you and can you help me out?
(27:25): Because if you are doing something that is successful, I would really love to be able to do that in my home. And I think there is a lot to be said for sharing what you are doing in your home so that if your co-parent would like to do the same, they’re not flying blind. So the way that I would look at that is if you’ve, you know, if you’ve got a sleep schedule and, and once I said, you know, you don’t need to worry about whether or not they’re same. Like, don’t, don’t, don’t go to court. I’ve never to court don’t, don’t, don’t go conflict over that. However you can say to your co-parent, I’m just letting you know this is what works really well in our house and if there’s something else that you find works really well in yours, I’d love for you to lemme know.
(28:05): And that way your co-parent then has the, they have the knowledge to be able to go, that seems like a really good idea if you come out it as I do this and you should do it too straight away. We don’t like, no, nobody likes to be told what to do. It’s the quickest way. I hate it when I accidentally prompt my kids to do a chore that they had in mind, their mind that they were going to do because of that’s first thing that does is makes them wanna not do it. Yes. So yeah, if we could hold that part back in. And my last part on that is if you are struggling with a behaviour with your child, share that with your co-parent because they might also be struggling. And then you can join forces and you can problem solve it together, or they might have nutted that out. And how useful to know that you don’t have to do that struggle, you don’t have to do the trial and error learning. You can bring in something from the knowledge and wisdom of your co-parent.
Laura Jenkins (29:04): Yeah. It’s a good reason why that communication is so important and getting to a place where you can keep healthy dialogue going otherwise you’re missing out on the opportunities to ask those questions and share that feedback. So the last question I’ve got for you Tiffany, is around any success stories. So I’m conscious you are meeting with co co-parents all the time, and I want to know about the ones who have got this nailed who are doing it really well. What are they doing to build these healthy co-parent relationships? And is there anything further to what we’ve discussed that you’d like to call out?
Tiffany Rochester (29:41): Yeah, so actually I had a, a gorgeous conversation with an accountant that I work in with from time to time. So I only work with co-parents in helping them have healthy co-parenting dynamics, but obviously there’s often a, a healthy financial separation that has to be stepped through as well. And she said to me, “gee, I’d really love to be a fly on the wall in your room to see what happens”. Because when your clients come and see me, they’re so child focused, they’re so grounded in who they want to be, she said for sure they still eye roll at each other from time to times. And she says, but you know, they’ll, they’ll come to a financial agreement that they don’t feel has to have any official seal other than their signatures because the parenting agreement that they have that has nothing more official than their signatures is upheld and respected by both of them.
(30:27): And when I look at the co-parents that, that make that transition, that achieve that, one of the first things is recruiting help early at the point of separation, obviously there is, there is often a history of pain and there’s, you know, a slow deterioration for both parties. Sometimes it comes completely out of the blue for, for one party. And so sometimes well often, you know, that song when a heart don’t break even that that often, right at that point in separation, you have two people who are at different points of the grief process and one is like, “you know, come on, I’m, I’m ready to move on and, and let’s be friendly and, and I I want to have a good relationship with you” and the other one goes “and I can’t even breathe”. And so, so what I would say is that is that is the point that you wanna recruit help in.
You don’t, you don’t want to wait till later to see how things go because every misstep you make is, is more damage and is more pain is, is is more hardship. So, and indeed my, when I first started working in this space, I was working with people who had been embroiled in the family court system for years and they were sent to me as mandated clients because the magistrate was throwing their hands up in the air going, we have no idea what to do with you, so let’s send you in for therapy. Therapy wasn’t the answer. Coaching was, and five to seven years down the track wasn’t the time point. Early, early, early is the time point. So do you know, I think I’ve lost track of your original question, but I’m really liking the train I’m on. Can I go for a moment?
Laura Jenkins (32:05): Keep going. <Laugh>, keep going. You’re on a roll.
So, so yes, so, so recruit the help early and I think the best time to involve a neutral professional in your separation process is at the point that you’re about to tell the children if you can get that part right and at that point commit to who you and your co-parent want to be through this whole tricky part, then you’re starting with the right mindset. And we’re going to pick up the areas that are difficult early and intervene early within that. If people are looking for legal advice, I would so, so so actively encourage any parent to look into their collaborative professionals network. They have a website I can send it through to you to put in the show notes. People who are listed on that website are trained in being a, a support unit around a separating family to take care of them all together to help them through to healthy separation.
(33:08): So if there are family lawyers involved, they’re working together for the benefit of the family. If there’s accountants or financial advisors or a coach like myself, the whole team is there to support a healthy separation. And the commitment to that is so strong and so fierce that part of being in collaborative process is all of those professionals agree that if it becomes adversarial, if they cannot find a healthy resolution, that none of them will continue to be involved with the family. So everybody is in 100% trained and absolutely passionate about getting that good outcome. The adversarial outcome, the, the, the mediation scaling up to to family courtland is a long pathway. It’s an expensive pathway and it tells parents what to do, but it doesn’t tell them how to do it. And I long for a time when the idea of going to court to step through separation is just barbaric. And where people look at it and go, I can’t believe that we ever thought that was a good idea. So if you’re just starting out on this journey, don’t go adversarial, go collaborative, it’s cheaper, it’s faster, and oh my gosh, you can use all of that extra money to take your kids on amazing holidays and have a really exciting, fabulous time in your new lives.
Laura Jenkins (34:36): So good, Tiffany. Well, we are at time now, but before we wrap-up, I wanted to ask you where people can go to find you if you’ve got any social handles or website where they can reach you.
Tiffany Rochester (34:47): Yes, so my website is co-parentingcompanion.au and you can find me on Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook as @coparentingcompanion. And yeah, I recommend it go and have a look and, and check me out. If I’m the right fit for you, I’d love to resource and support you, but also if I’m not, I’d really love for you to know that before you even reach out. And then we can, you know, look towards other resources and supports that could be right for you.
Laura Jenkins (35:14): Amazing. Thank you Tiffany. Well, I just love the service that you’re providing to co-parents and I have so enjoyed our chat today. I’ve learnt a lot. Thank you so much.
Tiffany Rochester (35:25): Thank you so much for having me as a guest. It’s been a joy to talk with you. As you can tell, I could talk about this all day as well. I live and breathe. So thank you so much for the space to be able to share this.
Laura Jenkins (35:35): Thanks for listening to the In The Blend podcast. The show notes for this episode are available at intheblend.com au. And if you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe and please rate and review in your podcasting app. You can also follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.